Orgasmic Worship - the topic few want to talk about, except me.



This post might strike some as disturbing. But before you judge me as full of lust, consider the obvious. Think before you respond.
A while ago I attended a friend's contemporary church. The worship was typically modern-evangelical with the emphasis on passion, high volume, and an up beat. I found it difficult to worship. Instead I observed.
As I watched the band play, something did not look right; the female singer looked like she was . . . experiencing sexual ecstasy. Now don't run around thinking me perverted. I found it awkward more than anything. I spoke with my wife about it (and not in confession of sin mode)and she agreed. This led to a further conversation about how we should appear during worship.
I think most folks don't given a second thought. Given the recent history of the church and our embrace of glamorous christian superstars, we just don't consider it. We should though. We should reconsider whether ecstasy is something we want expressed in public worship (private worship- great!).
I guess men are just supposed to ignore the attractive female singer who is flush faced, has her brow furrowed, and swooning?! Or how are men to respond when the "perfect" bodied young college and high school age girls dance around in tights? I can hear them now, "Stupid men, always thinking about sex. Why can't you be more like Jesus and just let us have our ecstasy? After all I do love Jesus and I worship from the HEART! Don't you?" My response: should the christian worship service be a place where men, and some women, have to protect themselves the same way they do when they walk past the magazine rack? The ancient church had this problem and Paul did not chastise the men! I anticipate that the feminized church goer will be critical (almost too the point of despising the male gender)of this post instead of recognizing that men need a degree of protection. I expect that most will see my questioning of this as my problem and not theirs.
One last thing to consider which might demonstrate the feminization of the church: could you imagine a male pastor saying, " I want the teenage girls to dance around in tights"? How would that pastor be viewed by other women in the church?
I've included some photos. Can you guess which one is from a Hindu worship ceremony? Does it look any different from the Christian images? That's a whole other discussion about how Christian worship has come to resemble paganism.
Look around this Sunday and let me know if it does not look like what I've suggested. I'm sure your comments will be passionate. If you've been unable to think about this topic, then let me quote an iconic movie character, "Luke, search your feelings."

37 Comments:
great post man. best one yet, in my humble opinion.
By
Miroslav, at 10:42 AM
Thanks man. You must have read it while I was editing. Try again.
By
George, at 10:45 AM
Close your eyes and bring your thanks and it all goes away.
"For the Lord sees, not as man sees
For man looks upon the outward appearance.
But the Lord looks upon the heart."
Somethings in the Kingdom are just not meant to be observed and judged.
Ask King David's wife about that.
By
Anonymous, at 12:08 PM
Anon,
Interesting choice of Scripture. Let's put it in context: "When they entered, he looked at Eliab and thought, 'Surely the Lord's anointed is before him.' But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance but the LORD looks at the heart.' I Sam. 16:6-7.
Which of King David's wives should I ask?
I think your use of a Scripture here is typical. If your line of reasoning is employed, then we can never call into question anything the church does. Was Paul wrong to tell women in Corinth to stop dressing up in gold and braids for church? Was their excess any indication of their heart?
I did not cast judgement on the sincerity of "orgasmic worshippers". I am calling into question whether or not it is an appropriate public expression. Why do we accept ecstatic worship as better than temperate worship? If it does stumble some, then why should we "Close your eyes and bring your thanks and it all goes away"? Why should the burden be placed upon the brother and not the sister? And does it really "go away"?
And what does the heart of man look like to God anyway? See John 2:24-25 and Matt 15:8-11.
My friend I have smacked you rather harshly upside the head to awaken you to drop your sentimentalism.
Hope to hear from you again.
By
George, at 12:51 PM
For those of you coming from Miroslav's site, check out the updated post.
By
George, at 12:55 PM
2 Samuel 6...
David returned home to bless his family. Michal, Saul's daughter, came out to greet him: "How wonderfully the king has distinguished himself today--exposing himself to the eyes of the servants' maids like some burlesque street dancer!" 21David replied to Michal, "In GOD's presence I'll dance all I want! He chose me over your father and the rest of our family and made me prince over GOD's people, over Israel. Oh yes, I'll dance to GOD's glory 22-more recklessly even than this. And as far as I'm concerned . . . I'll gladly look like a fool . . . but among these maids you're so worried about, I'll be honored no end."
Michal, Saul's daughter, was barren the rest of her life
I do think David and the Word disagree with your judgement.
Would have been much better for her not to judge another man's worship. Would have been much better for her to give thanks, close her eyes and...you know.
By
Anonymous, at 2:07 PM
Anon,
Now that's a reply! My thoughts on your thoughts later.
By
George, at 2:09 PM
Kids at my sister's Christian college called girly worship "Jesus is my boyfriend" worship!
I don't think there is any problem with the "look" on women's faces during worship, and quite agree with Anonymous that "anything goes" in front of the Lord (although certainly some things should be kept behind closed doors with just you and the Lord, eh?)
What I don't like about "girly worship" is a lot of the more shallow, I-just-love-you, sugary sweet, romantic songs we sing for worship. I love the Newsboys rendition of IN CHRIST ALONE -- have you heard it? It is such a manly, victorious song! A lot of the hymns and all of the psalms had war themes and God's victory -- along with the romantic stuff! We need both sides of the coin. God made men and women, and He is best worshipped through some mixture of both, don't ya think?
But I would agree that things have become increasingly effeminate as the masculine has been seen as less worthy.
By
Deborah, at 3:55 PM
Here's someone-random's blog posting on the subject of Jesus-is-my-boyfriend worship. He/She makes a great point that the worship lyrics simply need to be GOD-CENTERED.
Yep, that's the ticket.
I guess these comments would better fit under your "Why Men Hate Going to Church" post!
By
Deborah, at 4:42 PM
oops, corrected that wrong link
The comments on this blog post are a good read also.
By
Deborah, at 7:05 PM
Well, Interesting stuff folks! I thing there is valididty to both sides of the argument. I have been to churches where nothing but upbeat, praise songs are sung and there is never reflective or thought provoking time to consider what is God saying to me. I finde that very important during Worship. But I also feel that women need to be careful about what they wear, and if they are flaunting themselves. I am challenged by this though because I used to dance in church, (very properly dressed mind you) and I miss not being able to be that abandoned before God out of concern for what others might think or if it might cause them to stumble. But Paul cautioned us that we should always consider if what we bring to public Worship is uplifting and edifying to the body of Christ. If it is not then we should refrain. Just because we are comfortable with it doesnt mean that every one else is. Also- as they say "different strokes for different folks" - we all have different tastes and it doesn't necessarily make it wrong, just different.
By
Woman of Faith, at 7:33 PM
Glad to see everyone talking about this.
I want to add that one of the points that was not mentioned in my post was that worship is a corporate activity. It is the Body of Christ coming together to worship Him.
What has taken place over many years is that corporate worship has become a time of individualized expression.
Woman of faith - dance before the Lord at home or in a field somewhere - that's great! Consider that the greatest mystics (not that I want to encourage mysticism) came out of the most rigid liturgical form of worship known to the Christian world at the time. The modesty issue has gone out the window. I can't tell you how many times I've seen young ladies in church wearing pajama bottoms, short shorts, and spaghetti strap tank tops (meanwhile I'm all buttoned up in tie and coat - go figure).
Mama - Yes, the issue is whether or not the One True God is worshipped. How many times are songs ladened with "I" statements? The Psalms are too but mostly from a perspective of repentance.
Anon- Your argument does not convince me. I think we need use the Bible holistically. Just because King David danced before the Ark does not set precedent for corporate worship. He was a priviliged member of society after all. As for Michal I think she was bitter for David for other reasons. And her lack of children might have come about because David ignored her sexually for the rest of their lives. The question is what does God want? Closing the eyes does not work for the visitor who does not know the music and must look toward the screen in order to sing the song.
We must reconsider the style issue. Some of you should look at my archives and find my post on that (it is pretty funny I must say) I know that for years there have "worship wars". Luckily, and Miroslav will appreciate this, there has been no blood shed. I am convinced we must look back to the Bible and to our Forefathers and find out what they had to say. Why is it that so often we fail to look to those who have gone before us? There have been numerous generations prior to the Boomers after all.
By
George, at 7:47 AM
Don't do it...don't convince yourself that you have been given Holy x-ray eyes that somehow grant you power to judge what is sincere and what is not, especially when it comes to a man/woman's giving of thanks.
I assure you, this is not pleasing in His sight.
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to worship, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
I do believe that it is a dangerously exhaulted notion (the ability to know what is acceptable before Him and what is not, by facial expressions, etc...) that you have suggested.
Leave His kids alone when it comes to their pray and praise before Him and put your own "shout on" when you gather with the saints!
By
Anonymous, at 11:37 AM
Anon,
Once again I am not judging anybody's sincerity. Nor am I casting anyone into the lake of fire. I am simply saying that some expressions are not appropriate for public worship. I have not cited myself as somehow more righteous than others. I am just as right before God as anyone else.
You have not yet answered any of my original question:should the christian worship service be a place where men, and some women, have to protect themselves the same way they do when they walk past the magazine rack?
Should worship be thought of a gathering of individuals doing individually what they think is sincere or should it be a corporate expression?
I'd like to know whether someone should be allowed to laugh hysterically? Run around the sanctuary at full speed? Wave flags?
Stop warning me! I have not done anything here that will arouse God's judgement on my life? Neither have you. What you are displaying is just a typical post-modern view: what is true for one might not be true for all and what is true for all might not be true for one.
Does not Proverbs say, "A wise man makes judgements on all things"?
By
George, at 4:21 PM
Comment should read: "I am not doing anything that will arouse God's judgement in my life".
How funny that when a brother questions acceptable practices in the church, he is warned of God's judgement.
I wonder Anon what your opinion of reciting creeds, singing hymns from the 18th century, and memorizing confessions is? Is your thinking consistent or am I one of the "frozen chosen"?
By
George, at 4:27 PM
Leave His kids alone when it comes to their prayer and praise before Him and put your own "shout on" when you gather with the saints!
Just seems a whole lot more like church to me.
By
Anonymous, at 5:03 PM
George,
It is interesting that just because you are willing to question current practice,you become a threat to some, such as Anon. I myself am challenged by your questions and realize that we often just accept the "status quo" because we don't want to be considered trouble makers, or it just requires too much effort.
I really like the idea of Worship in "church" being Cooperate. My personal experience would be that I feel God closest when I am allowing Him to use me in public worship, i.e. praying for someone, reading a scripture out loud, focusing more on how he wants to move in our midst rather then what can He do for me today.
In fact,I'm sure more people would be saved and delivered from the bondages that they are in, if the body of Christ was willing to step out of the "What's in it for me" mode and focus on what is in this for Christ and His Kingdom.
By
Woman of Faith, at 1:14 PM
To: Woman of Faith and George
A threat?
I thought we were just a bunch of girls talkin' here?
We only get to share when we agree? Honest to God woman of faith, George's thoughts don't threaten me in the least.I'm just trying to share my thoughts which are different than his.
And George, I haven't suggested anywhere that you are about to be judged by our Father. I simply said that your thoughts are not aligned with scripture when it comes to judging another man's/woman's worship or prayer, and therefore not good in His sight.
You asked for our thoughts...sorry if I harshed your mellow.
You may be too young to have been there, or perhaps too stoned to remember, but church has already learned this lesson (I thought) back in the 60s and 70s...
The "church" went through a transformation (at least in California) when all the "hippies" started showing up on Sunday services. The men had long,long hair and really wierd clothes and some of them were a little bit stinky. The women showed up looking equally "disrespectful" and without bras! Many of these young people wore sandals or came into the "holy place" barefoot. Their music was so "different" from the way it should be, and some folks didn't like any of this one bit! The worst part...it went on for years.
You get the picture...
The churches (the people) that embraced these young "Jesus freaks" grew in the grace of the Lord and in the good fruit of salvation and in the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ. His pleasure was upon these churches and many of them continue to change the world.
I'm not so sure that George would have been "comfortable" in this mix being all "buttoned up in tie and coat - go figure." (Which by the way, is one really wonderful way to dress when going to worship! It's just that it's just one way...not the one "right way" that everyone else must follow.)
George's suggestion to the Woman of Faith to go "dance in a field" is curious when held up next to the "worship manual" of the scriptures.
Psalm 150
A Song Of Praise
Praise the Lord! Praise God in His holy place! Praise Him in the heavens of His power!
Praise Him for His great works! Praise Him for all His greatness!
Praise Him with the sound of a horn. Praise Him with harps.
Praise Him with timbrels and dancing. Praise Him with strings and horns.
Praise Him with loud sounds. Praise Him with loud and clear sounds.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!
Look up the Hebrew word for dance, or shouting or crashing...here, I'll help with just one:
dance/dancing: Original Word Word Origin
lwx a primitive root
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Chuwl khool
To twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained
to dance
to twist, writhe
to whirl, whirl about
Dancing in a field is good. Dancing in the "sanctuary" is good. He says so.
We all do it different and the Lord sees the heart...and when it's good, it's good.
Just stuff to pray and study and consider George. Don't get all heavy on me about judgement and stuff. Just because I don't think God likes your judgemental attitude about his kids, doesn't make me any different than you thinking you are possibly doing the church a favor here.
One last idea of mine:
Your use of a sexual term, "orgasmic," in describing the worship "look" or "actions" of his kids is horrible. I think you should take it off your blog or change the title of it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and these worshipers are performing for an audience of One...I wonder what you would think of the way I look when I worship? (Actually ...I don't.)
The heathen in their worship of many gods, mixed sexuality with their temple services. For you to even suggest this, in relationship to these young, blood washed dear ones, is careless at best.
Like metal sharpens metal, I hope.
Please pray about this before you post...deal?
I would love to read what He says to you.
By
Anonymous, at 9:24 PM
I was thinking about this discussion during church yesterday morning.
I had a thought down a different path....
Maybe the reason it looks (to you and others) like women in the photos are making a sexual expression is because of our oversexed society. Maybe the grocery aisles and T.V., etc., have caused some men to think that women always have sex on the brain (news flash: that is a LIE, guys).
I can assure you that the "look" on most women's faces during worship is not sexual in nature. Now, it may be a face showing passion, exhilaration, love, devotion, etc., and perhaps these expressions can be apparent in lovemaking, but they also can be seen on one's face when she is skiing, watching an endearing movie, reuniting with a long-lost loved one, looking at a newborn baby, etc. I don't think it is FAIR to let the world steal these good expressions and cause us to see them as something negative -- a pornography-type sexuality.
The world has already stolen so much! An example -- us gals (or our daughters) can’t wear anything with a rainbow on it these days without wondering if it looks like we are making a pro-homosexuality statement. Give me a break, God made rainbows first!
Let's take back what's ours. Gals should have the right to feel exhilarated by God and to make a face saying as such, I think.
Now, I didn’t see the woman you were referring to in your post. I can imagine that dancing like a pop star while dressed like a pop star while singing pop-Christian songs would be distracting to men, to say the least. But critiquing facial expressions is a long leap from questioning strange pop-star worship, I think.
I think women worshippers should be dressed VERY MODESTLY -- and more so than they think necessary if they are going to be in front of the service (maybe this is part of where head coverings originally came into practice? I don't know, just a thought)
All this to say, I agree with you that women need to be very careful not to distract men. Women need to be VERY careful not to cause men to stumble.
But, when I see the pictures you posted, I don't think these gals look like they are thinking about sex.
P.S.
Nancy Leigh DeMoss has done some interesting radio programs on the subject of modesty.
By
Deborah, at 7:41 AM
I forgot that I wanted to tell you I read an article in Biola Connections this weekend called Unjustifiably Undignified. It was referencing Matt Redman's song, Undignified, which is based on the story of David dancing naked before the Lord -- aforementioned here.
The author of the article, Benjamin C. Shin, has many interesting points to make. He says the main issue of this story is not an unusual worship style, but the deteriorating marriage between Michal and David. He says the story doesn't "prescribe worship in an undignified and, perhaps, uncaring manner toward the world."
He also suggests that the plainest meaning of Michal being barren the rest of her life was not a curse from the Lord but because David chose not to sleep with her anymore because of their messed-up relationsihp.
Shin goes on to quote scriptures about worshihpping in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), and other verses about being dignified (I Tim 3:4 and Titus 2:4,7), and references I Cor 14:33 and 40 about doing all things properly and in an orderly manner.
He closes the article by saying "while it may be true that Christians shouldn't care about what others think of our worship before the Lord, this passage does not support this concept.""
Anyway, just another interesting perspective on II Sam 6!
By
Deborah, at 8:56 AM
Again, thank you all for chiming in, especially Anon.
Anon - By using the word "orgasmic" I am accomplishing two things:
1. I am relaying my own thoughts about what I observed at my friend's church (and at various other churches for that matter);
2. I am arousing controversy. (Woman of faith seems to understand this).
On a separate note - christian mysticism, as it develops, almost always leads to a reference about sex . . . a Christ as lover sort of reference. Could it not be argued that the type of experience I am talking about is more pagan than Christian (pagan meaning,
" God look at me, look at how much I'm into you") ?
I think that the images I have included on the blog look pornographic. I think they capture the type of expression I saw in that church I visited.
I would not agree with "Mama" that somehow the world has captured good expressions (by the way I have never seen anyone look that way while skiing).
I think some are confused that I am suggesting that one not smile, look excited, etc. during worship. I have tried to be clear, which why I used the word "orgasmic". That expression is much different than a joyfulled expression. The "orgasmic" expression is rapturous, ecstastic, mystic; If they were truly captivated by the Lord (as Anon suggests) then how are they able to so easily stop because some guy says, "OK. Time for announcements".
Anon - It seems that you are implying judgement when you couple
"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted", and "Michal, Saul's daughter, was barren the rest of her life" and
"Would have been much better for her not to judge another man's worship".
Anon - I was born after the Jesus movement but have spent the better part of my christian life in church birthed from it. I think all kinds of people should be welcomed into the church. I am convinced that certain standards should be observed after the first visit. For example, what would have been the big deal if the older sisters told the younger hippie sisters that they had to cover up a little more or wear a bra during service? Would the hippies have been entitled to "shake the dust off"?
I think "the look" is something that becomes the norm, and comfortable, and easy . . . but is not necessarily Christian.
Mama - You posted a bit back that you agreed with Anon, "that "anything goes" in front of the Lord". The questions I have are: Does that include during the corporate expression of worship? Where are the limits (after all the church has had holy laughter, animal sounds, "slain in the spirit", etc.)?
By
George, at 12:23 PM
I think a gal CAN have a rapturous or ecstatic non-sexual look. Look at women's faces as they look at a brand-new baby (especially one they just birthed). Or did you watch any mothers of soldiers when they watched the statue of Sadaam Hussein coming down in Iraq -- that's an expression I imagine they could have had.
You've got me on the skiing thing. Besides, when I ski, it is a look of terror and bewilderment.
The photos you posted are all women in the pews -- not women up in front. I don't have any biblical reasoning for this double standard I am about to give, but it seems there should be different rules. In the pew, no one should be looking at you. Up front, the way we do church in America, stage-and-audience-style, people are looking at you and you aren't as alone with God as you are when you are one of many in the pews. I personally like it when the lights are dim and I KNOW no one can see me. And I love worshipping at special women's meetings as I feel more freedom to be demonstrative.
Maybe the trouble is that we are watching each other in corporate worship. What should corporate worship look like? It would be a good thing to research, as I don’t know much about this, but I KNOW off-hand that scripture mandates that God is glorified, that there is order, and that we are doing things that edify each other and not bring each other down.
I agree with you on part of this. I think worship in our society today is too much about ME and not enough about God. I think it is too focused on singing and feeling vs. living and obeying. I think the words are often too "Jesus is my boyfriend"ish – too effeminate.
I just don’t think facial expressions should be mandated – I don’t think you’ll find a place for this in scripture.
But you may find answers to how to do church, and maybe this particular issue would be resolved with the fixing of many other issues (how a church service should be, how the worship should be led – what should worship look like, what the lyrics of the songs are, modesty, the role of women in the church, the role of men in the church, etc. etc. etc.)
P.S. I think Anything Goes between you and the Lord alone, but not Everything Should Go in corporate worship.
By
Deborah, at 2:07 PM
The picture on my separate posting was taken from a worship team's site. She is holding a microphone.
I agree with the Emergent's on one point: Those singing should be behind us.
I think that my posting is not so much about mandating facial expressions, but about approaches to worship; Highly emotional/ecstatic vs. intellectual/exuberant.
By
George, at 3:51 PM
I'm disapointed and done.
"The first visit is free. After that...we do have a dress code here."
Really? That is how you approach the newborn or seeker?
Groovy.
By
Anonymous, at 4:29 PM
Anon,
I am sorry that you are "disappointed and done". I have tried to hold true to my convictions. Likewise, so have you.
This might seem obvious . . . but our inability to reconcile our differences is demonstrative of the divisions in the church at large. Those divisions are very real and substantial.
I acknowledge that my position is that of the minority, and is no longer considered mainstream. Since I have begun reading non-mainstream authors and historical church documents I have sensed just how much the church has changed.
You mourn my lack of friendliness and "pharisaicalism" and I mourn that the church is less than she should be in worship.
Thanks for all the comments.
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George, at 9:18 AM
Anon said that I was calling for a dress code. Is wearing a bra or covering up a little more the imposition of a dress code? I do recall that the apostle Paul chastised the women for wearing too much adornment?
Anon might be surprised that my church has asked folks not to wear cologne because it causes some in the congregation to have severe allergic reactions. Is that too much of an imposition on the seeker who comes drenched in it?
If someone is really seeking after God, won't they accept some imposition from the church on their lives?
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George, at 10:00 AM
One of the Pharisees asked him over for a meal. He went to the Pharisee's house and sat down at the dinner table. Just then a woman of the village, the town harlot, having learned that Jesus was a guest in the home of the Pharisee, came with a bottle of very expensive perfume and stood at his feet, weeping, raining tears on his feet. Letting down her hair, she dried his feet, kissed them, and anointed them with the perfume. When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man was the prophet I thought he was, he would have known what kind of woman this is who is falling all over him."
Jesus said to him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Oh? Tell me."
"Two men were in debt to a banker. One owed five hundred silver pieces, the other fifty. Neither of them could pay up, and so the banker canceled both debts. Which of the two would be more grateful?"
Simon answered, "I suppose the one who was forgiven the most."
"That's right," said Jesus. Then turning to the woman, but speaking to Simon, he said, "Do you see this woman? I came to your home; you provided no water for my feet, but she rained tears on my feet and dried them with her hair. 45You gave me no greeting, but from the time I arrived she hasn't quit kissing my feet. You provided nothing for freshening up, but she has soothed my feet with perfume. Impressive, isn't it? She was forgiven many, many sins, and so she is very, very grateful. If the forgiveness is minimal, the gratitude is minimal."
Then he spoke to her: "I forgive your sins."
That set the dinner guests talking behind his back: "Who does he think he is, forgiving sins!"
He ignored them and said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace, and for the love of God...get a bra and please read our church manual on the proper worship response, smells, and facial expressions allowed here when others are around you."
Perhaps there are some George, who have just been forgiven of much more than you have been.
Your suggestion regarding the picture of a woman holding a microphone and singing, is a reflection of something very broken within you. If you have a circle of mature Christian men whom you trust, please share this stuff with them and get some healing.
Very, very seriously George, you've got some issues that need the light.
By
Luke, at 1:01 PM
I would hope we all realize that we have some serious issues!
Luke,
An Ad hominem attack is always appropriate when someone has nothing to say. I don't mind debate and argument about what I have posted, but you've attacked me personally without really knowing me, or what I have been forgiven of.
I acknowledge that had one not read the post thoroughly or read my other posts/links they would think that I am a disturbed individual. I said as much in the original post.
Thanks for your concern about my well being.
Healed and Forgiven,
George
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George, at 3:33 PM
I would hope that those readers of this post would find their way to some of my other postings on worship. You'll find that I am not alone. In fact, much of my criticism of contemporary worship has been influenced by various authors.
This post was the result of my own observation. I tried to call a spade a spade, and question where some of the limits are.
I still hold that certain behaviors are not ok during worship.
But for the sake of "tolerance" I am going to Anon and Luke's church next week in a Speedo. I wonder how long I'll be welcomed?
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George, at 3:44 PM
Holy blog wars batman!
Sheesh. I turn away for a couple of days, and look what I find...
I've got to agree with these two points here:
"Maybe the reason it looks (to you and others) like women in the photos are making a sexual expression is because of our oversexed society." (deborah)
and
"For you to even suggest this, in relationship to these young, blood washed dear ones, is careless at best." (anon)
...
George,
In one of your posts you share that you are simply writing your thoughts about what you observed at a friend's church. ... Given that nobody from this blog was there to see/hear what you are talking about, they (we) can only go on what you are giving us. The pictures you've provided really don't do it for me. I mean, I don't look at them and see SEX. Not at all. (and I'm kind of a perv so... thats sayin' something). LOL!
Seriously though, I have to admit I was taken back with your choice of photo used to prove your point ... the one with the mic. Its either:
1) bad taste
2) reflects how you perceive things (which seems to be the assumption in Anon's writings and "Luke" here at the end).
I don't want to guess which it is, but either way, you've got your self in to a little pickle here. (not a sexual reference, fyi)...
Um...
where was I, ...
yes, being in a tough situation...
You have shared something that has been on your mind. Perhaps it was overstated. Perhaps it was stated with a bit of poor taste. Or maybe there is something more deserving of attention here... perhaps your perception of the whole issue more than anything else. Deborah put it very softly, Luke very pointedly... but both sugest that it may not be what you see that is the problem, but more how you see it. In your post here you sort of pre-address this angle by saying your wife saw it too and that we shouldn't think you perverted. So maybe this experience you had was far out there and weird. But these pictures... with the captions you've chosen... lets just say if they were pics of my wife, and you add a sexually suggestive title like that when she is in fact in worship... oh yeah, that would piss me off.
Who knows? ...
not me.
Just my two cents since you asked. ;)
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Miroslav, at 3:51 PM
...is always appropriate when someone has nothing to say.
Here is what I said my brother since you missed it:
Your suggestion regarding the picture of a woman holding a microphone and singing, is a reflection of something very broken within you. If you have a circle of mature Christian men whom you trust, please share this stuff with them and get some healing.
...but you've attacked me personally without really knowing me.
"A man speaks out of the abundance of the heart."
It's true...I don't "know you."
We've heard from your heart and the abundance within it, and it's not like Jesus in the matters you've spoken of.
That's all.
I got stuff too and people help me see it.
Go in peace.
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Luke, at 4:19 PM
Slav,
You are right regarding using the images. I did not think of them as pictures of someone's wife, daughter, etc.
What kind of bothers me too though is that someone took a photos during worship.
I assume that some are thinking of the microphone as phallic. I did not think of really that way until some were upset at the photos. I was really more interested in using the image to capture what I saw in the church that day. I found it off of a church site
Certainly touched a nerve didn't I?
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George, at 4:34 PM
George,
you didn't see that? really? wow.
well, in that case, we add possibility number three: Whoops!
By
Miroslav, at 4:44 PM
Disclaimer: I wrote this long post and was waiting for hubby's OK to hit PUBLISH, when I got back I noticed some of these points have already been addressed...I liked Miroslav's 2cents a lot, and I really like the idea of reading George's other posts -- I think the other posts clarify a lot.
Anon and George,
It’s frustrating to watch you two talking and feel like you are both misunderstanding each other.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you both, but it seems you are talking about a few different issues here. This first issue is a new one I bring up, but I think it accentuates the 2 worldviews you are coming from.
#1) What is the purpose of church?
It is common and typical to believe that church is for seekers. Certainly, may a seeker never be turned away from the doors of a church, but scripturally and historically, a church service is for Christians. And God states over and over in the scripture that Christians ARE to live to a certain standard – obedience is a basic tenet of Christianity. If church IS for Christians, the pastor/elders are free to teach from the scripture as to what God has asked of us as Christians – including, but not limited to, teaching on modesty.
The other thing that happens when we see church as for Christians is that we are freed up to become evangelists and disciple-makers in our homes and in our families and in our neighborhoods. Too often, Christians see evangelism as inviting a Non-Christian to church. I had friends who would work alongside a non-Christian for years, never sharing faith with that person, but constantly inviting him/her to hear one of our excellent pastors speak. We not only don’t HAVE to leave evangelism to the professionals – we SHOULD NOT. It is so sad that many of us have lost our ability to lead our neighbors and friends to Christ, and I blame this on 1.) the church service providing evangelism for us, and 2) the church service not providing discipleship where Christians learn to lead others to Christ on our own.
Church should be a time where Christians come together as the family of God to bless our Lord, where we are taught how to act like Christians, and where we are empowered to go out and meet the needs of those in our homes and community, through the message and kindness of Jesus Christ.
For more on this idea, I highly recommend a little book called The Master Plan of Evangelism by Robert Coleman. It is considered a Christian classic, but not enough people have read it these days. The author lays out Jesus’ way of doing evangelism/discipleship. Though he never discusses how to run a church, he discusses how to lead others to Christ and teach them to reproduce themselves. Funny, it feels “smaller” to do it the way Jesus did (no building, small group of men, teaching from day-to-day life instead of well-developed curriculum, etc.), but the effects Jesus’ disciples had on the world were enormous. I believe implementing this plan would be much more effective than what the church has been up to lately.
Issue #2: Modesty and a Dress Code
No, we don’t expect the unsaved to live by any sort of dress code. For street preaching, expect gals dressed in revealing clothing to come by and hear the good news – and if you are a man who struggles with this, don’t participate in this ministry.
But again, if church IS for Christians, here is the ideal place to teach principles of modesty and how God would like us to worship.
What would happen if Christians did uphold a high standard of modesty, a high standard of Christ-like love in marriage, a high value on the blessings of children, and adherence to biblical principles regarding all sorts of things – perhaps the seeker that stumbled into a church would see something that looked different than the rest of the world, and perhaps be drawn to it.
Women, like myself, were never taught about modesty in any sort of church forum. I think the major responsibility in this falls upon the older sisters to teach the younger sisters. We have serious problems in Christianity with modesty – we look too much like the rest of the highly immodest world.
I still regret not speaking with a young gal from my old church who wore VERY revealing clothing. I wanted to pull her aside and tell her how easy it is for men to stumble. But, she was not a strong believer, and I felt that I could come across as rude and scare her away. What she needed was not a dress code but an older woman who became her friend and mentor, and who was not afraid to tell her about the facts of life and God’s words on modesty. I wasn’t that person, and I wish I had been. This gal never did turn her life around towards victorious living in Christ, and ended up meeting an untimely tragic death. I believe God is sovereign, but I still wonder if we older gals had not been so careful not to offend this girl, perhaps we could have re-directed her passions -- and perhaps given her a better understanding of what it means to be a Christian.
Offensive or not, it is the scriptural duty of older gals to teach the younger how to obey God –including how not to dress in a sinful way.
I am quite confident that Mary Magdalene would not have continued looking like "that kind of woman." Not only would she not feel the need to dress this way after she received the love and satisfaction she needed in Jesus, but I am sure the women who accepted her into the fold would have taught her proper sheep behavior.
There IS proper sheep behavior. We can’t ignore God’s commands as a gimmick to try to draw in the Lost. Instead, I believe the Lost will be very taken with a group of people who is walking after the Shepherd. I speak from experience – in the past 3 years I have met several families who live like the Bible is a handbook and not a story book. They are happy, and healthy. Their kids love each other, the women are happy to be women, the men are happy to be men, they strive to find out what God wants for them by reading His word, then they acclimate themselves to what He says. No they are not perfect, but different enough that I have been wooed into living a fresh life of obedience before God. And for selfish reasons – I want the good results!! I can’t imagine non-Christians not feeling the same way about Christians who are serious about pleasing the Lord.
Issue #3: The woman and the microphone
I think Anon misunderstood George on this one. I am certainly hoping so! Maybe you can clarify, George. My husband, at first, thought the same thing Anon is thinking, “What the heck is he saying?”
I THINK George was only pointing out that she had a microphone as way to make a point that not all the women in the photos were in the pew as worshippers, but that this particular woman was certainly on the stage.
As far as the original photo being a phallic symbol, I didn't think George was trying to say that (and hubby didn't think so originally either, he just didn't get the comments left about the photo). If George was saying this, it would be pretty messed up. It would mean he had an issue with looking at microphones, not women :)
Issue #4: Intimate Issues that George needs help with…
I just don’t think George is the only one who thinks about sex. I think that’s a man thing, and instead of shaming him into not saying that he thinks women are being too revealing (this is the part of what he is saying I understand, even though I STRONGLY DISAGREE with him on the facial expression stuff), I think we should examine the issue and see if just maybe the church has gone down an immodest track that could use some re-routing. Scriptures will "reveal" answers to this, if we look for them.
And, yet, it is true that even if everyone came to church in swimsuits, men, of course, are still responsible for their own hearts – he who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has committed adultery with her.
It is interesting to me that God gave commands to both men and women on this issue. Women must be careful not to be alluring, men must be careful to protect their eyes and to view other women as sisters. As brothers and sisters we are too look out for each other in this manner.
Issue #5: Emotional Worship v. Intellectual/Exuberant Worship
If this is your main point, George, you should stick to it. I think you have a valid argument here, but people like Anon cannot see your argument past the offensiveness of you calling photos of women praising the Lord something sexual.
Tweak your argument. Pick on something more substantial and easier to discuss. Sure, this post worked to get everyone worked up in a tizzy, but I don’t think it worked to have people understand what you are really saying – which bums me out because I think you have something valid to say. (added: you are right that reading your other posts and links to articles will clarify A LOT on this subject)
Perhaps go back to the idea of corporate worship v. a bunch of individuals worshipping in the same room. Or go to the idea of the worship leaders being in the front v. the back of the room. Or the lyrics of the songs. Or even the styles of music. Or the modest/immodest attire of women worship leaders. Or the role of women in worship-leading.
Any of these are easier to make sense of and dig into scripture over than women’s facial expressions possibly looking sexual. It’s just TOO MUCH.
I hope this makes sense. The boys are almost up from quiet time and I am out of time! Hoping to help clarify things and not make them worse…I would like to see the conversation between you two continue to help us all think through these things -- especially if you can keep coming back to the scriptures in reasoning.
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Deborah, at 5:26 PM
There is an old African proverb:
"Let the drummer play the drum."
I suggest to deborah:
"Let the men correct the men."
It really is good.
After reading the entire post, I think Luke and the other guys meant exactly what they said to George.
I don't think they misunderstood what he was saying or what they were saying.
Let the men correct the men.
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African Drummer, at 10:15 PM
Deborah is right about the microphone. Whatever comments I made about it were meant to illustrate that she was a worship leader.
African Drummer - I welcome comments from everybody. I don't think Deborah was correcting me. She was clarifying the post. I think she understood what I was trying to say (she is the only one who has mentioned that she read the other posts/links about worship). Besides, she was under the authority of her husband when she wrote it.
Deborah - I think your comments were outstanding! I think your respect appropriate boundaries (by having your husband in on your post) was also outstanding! I likewise keep my wife informed and share what I say and what is said on the blog.
Writing with clarity is difficult, but I think with this particular topic it is the images that set many off (a picture is worth a thousand words). Too bad we have become such a photographic, vs. a typographic, society. I like using images in my posts, but with this post the images were used to demonstrate the point of a text. I used them more like an artist than a journalist. I was trying to say, "This is what it looked like". BEWARE: I am going post another image. The intention behind this is humorous.
Everyone- You can psychoanalyze me to the Nth degree, but I am still sticking to the core of what I have posted: "I think most folks don't given a second thought. Given the recent history of the church and our embrace of glamorous christian superstars, we just don't consider it. We should though. We should reconsider whether ecstasy is something we want expressed in public worship". Those of you who know me and want more details . . . you know how to get ahold of me.
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George, at 8:06 AM
African Drummer,
What’s the matter can’t have a debate with a girl?
BTW wasn’t it Anon. that said “I thought we were just a bunch of girls talkin’ here!” :0)
There’s a new American proverb that says:
“You wanna drum, then let’s start drummin’”
Go to Deborah’s last comments take the five issues (written with my input and blessing) and let the fun begin…
By
Deborah's Man, at 11:20 AM
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